Godwin’s Law Has Acquired an Asterisk

According to Wikipedia, Godwin’s Law is understood thusly:

Godwin’s Law (also known as Godwin’s Rule of Nazi Analogies)[1] is an adage formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states: “As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.”[2][3]

(snip)

There are many corollaries to Godwin’s law, some considered more canonical (by being adopted by Godwin himself)[2] than others invented later.[1] For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically “lost” whatever debate was in progress. This principle itself is frequently referred to as Godwin’s Law.

(snip)

Godwin’s Law applies especially to inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic comparisons of other situations (or one’s opponent) with Hitler or Nazis or their actions.

Stupid Wikipedia. You know what they forgot to put in that article? The asterisk! You know, the one that says this principle no longer applies to Jewish people!

Yes, it’s true. The victims of the Holocaust themselves should be compared frequently, and with impunity, to Nazis. This is not only a free speech issue, but is the sign of a person wanting to have a legitimate discussion about the actions of the Israeli government towards the Palestinian people.

Or, so saith certain bloggers who call themselves lefties.

Now, I’m reminded of when I was blogging on lefty blogs in the past, and I started bringing up the word “fascism” with reference to the Bushies and their “unitary executive” theory. I was warned not to use that word, because it was too close to comparing Bush with Hitler, and I was violating Godwin’s Law.  Never mind that Rummy admitted to using the Blitzkrieg as a model for his invasion of Afghanistan. Never mind that KKKarl Rove’s grandfather was actually A NAZI.

So let me get this straight. According to some on the left, the important thing to remember is that you must be sensitive to actual authoritarian, jack-booted thugs like the Bushies, but not to Jewish people. It’s also important to play the victim when you are called on the carpet for it.

For the incredibly slow learners out there, this is an example of a legitimate criticism of the Israeli government:

“The Israeli government should not have settled illegally in the Gaza Strip. They should pull out immediately.”

This is not.

As the Simon Wiesenthal Center put it:

“The imagery in this cartoon mimics the venomous anti-Semitic propaganda of the Nazi and Soviet eras. It is cartoons like this that inspired millions of people to hate in the 1930s and help set the stage for the Nazi genocide.” 

Shtuey points out that this cartoon is no different from the anti-Semitic propaganda put out by Islamic terrorists bent on eradicating the Jewish people from the earth. And yes, I’m so sorry to break it to some of you, but anti-Semitism just exists. It’s like racism: some people just hate other people who have different skin color, FOR NO REASON. It’s been that way for thousands and thousands of years. Why can’t the left grasp that? Or do they think the Jews did something to deserve the Holocaust or the Inquisition? Do they think that Africans did something to deserve being ripped from their homeland and sold into slavery?

Even worse, cartoons like this propagate the lie that the Israeli government is genocidal towards the Palestinians. Earth to the clueless: If Israel wanted them dead, they’d be dead. We’ve armed Israel to the teeth in order to ensure its survival. The Palestinians wouldn’t have a prayer in hell if the Israelis decided to destroy them.

Outraged does not begin to express how I feel about this type of vileness. But let me say this loud and clear:

Anyone who compares Jewish people to Nazis is not only anti-Semitic, but is violating the basic laws of decency, good political discourse and, of course, the law of Godwin. This is not legitimate criticism, and it is beyond ludicrous to say so. It is propaganda and hate speech, and should never, EVER be promoted or encouraged by anyone.

What’s really sad is that something like that even needs to be said. No wonder the mantra of the Jewish people is, “Never forget.” Some, it appears, have forgotten – or never knew, in the first place, the terrible power of anti-Semitism.

Cross-posted at Partizane

UPDATE: I have been correctly admonished for my references to Prescott Bush in this context. Apparently his Nazi connection has been unjustly inflated by the Internet rumor mill. I apologize for including him in my post, and his name has now been removed.

However…whether or not the Bushies should be referred to as Nazis was NOT the point of the post. The point is that Godwin’s Law should apply to everyone, but most especially to the victims of the Holocaust.

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76 responses to “Godwin’s Law Has Acquired an Asterisk

  1. Selective morality is a new modern convenience. I am reminded of the media’s contrasting treatment of BO and Hillary this past year. Racism bad, misogyny okay. Put Jew hate in the okay category I guess.

    In this current atmosphere, not only will I not forget, I will not forgive.

    What’s really sick is when people whine about how they feel they can’t criticize Israel without being tarred anti-semites (whether it happened or not) but will, out of the other side of their mouths, say that if you support Israel then you are against the Palestinians.

    When the terms of the debate are being framed by people with the maturity of a petulant two-year-old, what hope is there of having anything resembling a cogent discussion of the issue?

    I think we need Super Nanny to put some of these people in “timeout.”

    Great post MB!

  2. garychapelhill

    Very well said Madamab. I too am surprised at the vitriol and bigotry that people are willing to accept under the guise of “legitimate political discourse”.

    I wrote the following comment on shtuey’s post, using the African American community’s attempts to remove the confederate flag from statehouses and flags in the south as a comparison:

    I think a good analogy for hypocrites who like to say that Jews (or anyone else for that matter) who say these types of images are racist only do so to silence opposition in the I/P debate is the controversy over the use of the Confederate Flag in the south. African Americans who were treated as property under that flag have every right to be outraged when it is given a prominent place in their public and civic arenas, such as on state flags. The response that it is “only a flag” and that they should get over it only exacerbates the indignation of the black community. Leftists who would never argue that flying the Confederate flag is part of southern heritage and that blacks should just get over it and stop using it as a “get out of jail free card”, have no problem saying just that to people who find Oliphants cartoon offensive.

    The confederate flag might be a source of pride to some southerners (who may or may not be racist), but the association of that symbol with the suffering of african americans supercedes white southerner’s right to have that symbol displayed publicly by the state, imo.

    As far as private discourse, those that disagree with me are free to espouse whatever opinion they want about that horrible cartoon, or anything else. But don’t do it and then try to paint yourself as the victim. Don’t accuse those who disagree with you of silencing debate. And don’t accuse them of bigotry and expect them to remain silent. As a southerner who has lived his whole life witnessing the very same game being played by whites in the flag debate, it is unworthy of even acknowledging by engaging in discourse. They too, like to argue that there are multiple sides to the issue. That the rights of white southerners to honor their ancestors are equal to those of blacks who decry honoring a system that for generations kept them in chains. I still see that flag on bumper stickers by defiant, ignorant southerners every day. But thankfully they are becoming less and less plentiful. One can only hope that over time such selfish inability to see things from other people’s perspective will slink off into the obscurity of history altogether.

    there is never a legitimate reason to compare Jews to the genocidal maniacs who tried to end their very existence. Until the IDF starts to round up arabs, brand them, systematically exterminate them, and burn them into oblivion, any such hyperbolic comparison should be called exactly what it is, anti-Semitism.

  3. Great post and I agree that it’s astonishing that something like this even needs to be said. Our society is filled with this kind of ignorance. Andy mentions the confederate flag. There’s also things like the expression “That’s so gay.” It’s not a compliment and I’ve heard many acquaintances and co-workers use it in front of me. They don’t think that the statement is actually offensive, they just say it as a throw-away line. This cartoon you link to would probably not register as offensive to many people, even with those who say they have no opinion on the I/P conflict.

    Incidentally, I think “Godwin’s Law” is actually quite flawed. Sometimes comparisons to Nazis and Hitler are appropriate.

    In college (Hofstra University) I worked in the Special Collections branch of our library and it contained a collection of Nazi-era propaganda. We were cataloguing it and aside from the obvious examples of anti-Semitism you also had things like a math text-book for children which contained the following math problem: A German boy has 1 apple, a Jew has 8 apples. How many more apples does the Jew have?

  4. garychapelhill

    DYB, you’re right. It was like when Obots said it was ok for Rick Warren to speak at the inauguration because he just represents another side in the debate over whether gay people should have civil rights, or they should be treated as earthly demons. I mean, there is no debate there. Rick Warren’s views are bigoted, plain and simple, and for anyone to give a platform and defend his “viewpoints” as equally valid as our struggle for civil rights is repugnant.

    A lot of the same people who are apologizing for the bigotry of that cartoon are the same people who told me that they agreed with me when I said that Obama Supporter Douglas Kmiec was a bigot when he compared gay people to nazi eugenicists and that we wanted to use artificial insemination to create some master race of gays. As MB pointed out with Godwin’s Law, it was a no brainer I guess. That comparison is just too far out there. Even in a culture where it is still perfectly legitimate to demonize gays. It is astonishing that the very victims of those nazis are the only group that aren’t afforded the courtesy of not being compared to them.

    Does anyone remember when Wayne LaPierre, then president of the NRA compared federal agents to “jack booted thugs” in a 1995 letter? The left and the right were outraged. NRA members resigned in protest, including former president Bush:

    In 1995, LaPeirre penned a fund-raising letter in which he referred to federal law enforcement agents as “jack booted thugs.” While not written in relationship to the tragedy, the letter was mailed shortly after the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City.

    Although LaPierre issued an official apology, it was too little, too late.

    According to an Associated Press story, the letter directly resulted in the NRA being barred from major sporting goods show in Houston, Laredo and McAllen, Texas.

    The letter also prompted the resignation of many long-standing NRA members including former President George Bush. Here is an excerpt from President Bush’s 1995 letter to NRA associate president Thomas Washington:

    “I was outraged when, even in the wake of the Oklahoma City tragedy, Mr. Wayne LaPierre, Executive Vice President of NRA, defended his attack on federal agents as ‘jack-booted thugs.’ To attack Secret Service agents or ATF people or any government law enforcement people as ‘wearing Nazi bucket helmets and black storm trooper uniforms’ wanting to attack law-abiding citizens is a vicious slander on good people….

    I am a gun owner and an avid hunter. Over the years I have agreed with most of NRA’s objectives, particularly your educational and training efforts, and your fundamental stance in favor of owning guns.

    However, your broadside against Federal agents deeply offends my own sense of decency and honor, and it offends my concept of service to country. It indirectly slanders a wide array of government law enforcement officials, who are out there, day and night, laying their lives on the line for all of us.

    You have not repudiated Mr. LaPierre’s unwarranted attack. Therefore, I resign as a Life Member of NRA, said resignation to be effective upon your receipt of this letter. Please remove my name from your membership list.” — The letter was quoted in: Inside the NRA: Armed and Dangerous, by Jack Anderson, 1996.

    So far, the NRA has indicated no intention of issuing an apology for LaPierre’s statements of last Sunday.

    I dare say that none of the left leaning people who call that cartoon “legitimate poltiical discourse” were speaking up to support Mr. LaPierre at the time. And for good reason.

  5. hi, the only problem with is that not all Fascists were NAZIs and not all Fascists did what the NAZIs did to the Jewish people. There was a Spanish brand, a Japanese brand, an Italian brand, and there were the Stalinists (although they were completely antiJew and did drive Russian Jews from their homes.) There was the Cambodian Fascist period also.

    I don’t think Israel is fascist regime. I think comparing Israel to fascism is wrong. The cartoon was way over the top. I do seek legitimate discourse on the IP subject, but again, the first thing I thought when I saw the jackbooting headless soldier was the Soviet Union, not the NAZIs. I didn’t arrive at the conclusion that it was NAZI reference. The thing that grabbed me was the use of the Star of David because it is both the symbol of a state and a religion. So, my next question is this. Thinking back on the cartoons that provoked such outrage in Denmark, specifically the one with the mohammed who’s turban was a bomb with a lit fuse, is this criticism that could be called anti-Arab as well as ant-Islam and does it fall under the same damnation as the oliphant cartoon?

    I see the cartoons on Shtuey’s site as clearing anti-jewish, right down to the stereotype. They are hateful in a most obvious way. And again, I don’t think Israel is fascist. But I don’t see the cartoon as saying Jews are Nazis which I think is what you’re saying it says to you? Yes?

  6. Yes, dakinikat, it says quite clearly to me that Jews are Nazis. And Joseph Cannon also has a lovely cartoon with a Nazi sporting an armband with a Star of David instead of a swastika on it.

    Even if you don’t see the reference (which, again, is crystal clear to me), you have to admit that this cartoon in no way resembles legitimate criticism.

    I never saw the cartoon to which you refer, but I would never condone any demonization of Muslims. I personally have known very observant Muslims who taught me things about Islam that I knew nothing about. They were lovely people and had no problem with me either as a Jewish person or as a woman.

    But that’s not really the point, is it? We are discussing the demonization of Jews, not Muslims. The point is that the cartoon is anti-Semitic, hateful propaganda that in no way resembles legitimate discourse. It is totally and completely indefensible. Why must you then ask me about my feelings towards Muslims?

    I have a lot of respect for you, dakinikat, but I must say your questions seem a little off base.

  7. garychapelhill

    excuse me for saying so dakinikat, but your pedantic description of fascism only serves to muddy the waters and unfairly makes MB seem like she’s overreacting (which is really frustrating, btw, when you are only trying to explain why you feel the way you do). images of jack boots and goose stepping is so closely associated with German facism, the facism that tried to take over the world and exterminate all jews, gays, gypsies, and all of us other “undesirables” from the face of the earth, that it can only mean one thing. Maybe from your perspective you have the luxury to contemplate whether it is a Spaniard or an Italian, but people who have been the “actual” victims of these monsters do not. Then to make insinuations (without cause) that we would not afford other groups the same dignity and respect that we are asking for is insulting, and akin to calling us bigots. Ironic, considering that some people have been repeatedly, and without warrant, accusing some of us– publicly –of doing just that.

  8. Well, maybe I am offbase because when I saw the cartoon, I asked myself is Israel a militaristic fascist state say like the Soviet Union or North Korea. That is what to the cartoon implied to me. I didn’t look at the cartoon and think are they equating Jews with Nazis. So, you are arguing that the cartoon is followed the Godwin paradigm but, I didn’t think NAZI, until some one else brought that up. My first reaction was it looks remotely soviet. To me, the cartoons Shtuey posted clearly demonize Jews because of the characterizations of the people and the actions presented in the cartoon. To me, the Oliphant cartoon equated the actions of Israel with facism. The use of the star of david which is both the symbol of Israel and a Jewish religious symbol is the one thing that brought the religion into mind for me but that seems inevitable because the symbol represents many things.

    So, then, this incident reminded me of the Danish cartoon incident a few years ago.

    here’s the cartoons in Denmark that were heavily criticized by some Muslims as being disrespectful to them. I was just wondering if you saw similarities in that controversy and this one. Hopefully, I seem less off base, but then again, I can’t see equating the state of Israel, a democracy, with the likes of a North Korea as being anything but wrong wrong wrong.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy

  9. Kat – I appreciate the explanation, but again I am very puzzled as to why you are unsure about which type of fascism the cartoon was portraying. Where in the world are you getting North Korea from?

    There is no chance the cartoon was referring to anything but Nazis. Zero. How can you not get this?

    It’s an anti-Semitic cartoon. The point is to show that the Jews have become like their oppressors because they are genocidal towards the Palestinians, a huge lie that far too many well-meaning people believe. Obviously the people who goose-stepped and were genocidal towards the Jews, were the Nazis.

    I feel like you’re honestly confused here, but I’m not sure why.

  10. Madamab, I get. I’m just saying that wasn’t my first reaction to the cartoon. If you watch TV news and you see goosestepping troops, it is likely to be some NK birthday exercise. You also used to see a lot of goosestepping in the Saddam years. Unfortunately, Goosestepping is NOT going out of style any time soon. And I would never equate Israel with any of those fascist states. For Oliphant to use an imagine that can be inferred as a goosestepping NAZI to criticize Israel is outrageous.

  11. For Oliphant to use an imagine that can be inferred as a goosestepping NAZI to criticize Israel is outrageous.

    At least we can agree on that!

  12. There’s an interesting disconnect at how people perceive that cartoo. MadamaB, who is Jewish, was offended. I’m Jewish also and was offended. I don’t think dakinikat is Jewish (correct me if I’m wrong) – and her reaction is quite muted. Not too long ago my personal trainer, who is a young black man, was telling me that he saw a lot of white movie critics complaining that Tyler Perry’s “Madea Goes To Jail” was offensive to black people. But, he pointed out, the theater he saw it at was filled with black people who loved every minute of the movie. There’s clearly a disconnect at how people viewed that film. If blacks were not offended, why were whites offended on their behalf? The reaction to this cartoon is revealing the reverse effect. If Jews (there’s only a few of us here!) are offended – maybe it really is offensive. Which isn’t to say that sometimes people don’t overreact. But look at the Star of David, with its sharp and barred teeth ready to eat the small and fleeing Palestinian. The intent is as clear as day. And comparing Israel and many of its actions (some of its actions, incidentally, I personally disagree with very strongly) to Nazis has been extremely common. When bashing Israel it’s Nazism that comes up first, not just any random fascist party. That’s not an accident. That comparison is very deliberate.

    BTW, hi dakinikat! I miss reading your posts!

  13. garychapelhill

    I don’t get why so many people are so quick to defend Pat Oliphant. He was right on board the misogyny train bashing Hillary Clinton in the primaries

    Here:

    In case you can’t read what it says in the corner, it is “this is what happens when PMS goes nuclear.”

    and here he implies that she is racist:

    and here as the “psycho b#tch:

    Is anyone going to defend Oliphant’s depiciton of Hillary as an emotional, saggy eyed PMS enraged harpie??? Wasn’t that the sexist “joke” for years about a woman president? You know that we don’t want someone with PMS with their finger on the button. He treated Sarah Palin and Condi Rice in similar fashion. Given this guy’s other OBVIOUS problem with misogyny, why is it so hard to imagine that he might have similar bigoted feelings towards Jews? Honestly the people out there who keep sticking their feet into their mouths over and over again to defend this jack a@# really should give it a rest.

  14. Hello PUMA’s

    Apparently Daily Kos has deemed me to be a right wing nut . No a politically in-correct right wing nut. The Kos seems to stalk me an my other Little Green Footballs colleagues and is out to shame us for criticizing the Chosen One.

    LGF Outrage Over Special Olympics With Super Meta Irony

    Check out my comment that they did copy and paste on:

    http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/3/20/163329/171

  15. garychapelhill

    Oh, and for the record, Arabs/Muslims think Oliphant is racist too…

    Today the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee (ADC) wrote to the San Francisco Chronicle and Universal Press Syndicate to communicate concern over racist depictions of Arabs in caricatures by Pat Oliphant. In recent weeks, ADC received numerous complaints from readers and concerned citizens regarding Oliphant’s cartoons.

    On January 8, an especially offensive cartoon was published in the San Francisco Chronicle, which implied that Arabs are unconcerned with the Tsunami disaster and are inhumane.

    The ramifications of this type of ‘cartoon’ combined with the false stereotypes that Oliphant perpetuates, are tantamount to fueling further mistrust and bitterness towards the Muslim and Arab worlds. It should also be noted that Oliphant has a history of cultural stereotyping in his caricatures.

    So let’s look at oliphant’s record:

    misogyny: check<

    anti-arab: check

    has a history of stereotyping a variety of peoples: Like Indians, African Americans, aisans (right down to the buck teeth and accent “lotten amellicans”), check. About 15 minutes on google images could provide many more examples I’m sure.

    anti-Semitic: no, you’re just using that as an excuse to stifle debate.

    I’m sorry but those bloggers on that other site are really making themselves look like jackasses…

    especially the one that has now banned any discussion of the Holocaust.

    Hell, even their hero, Paul Krugman, called Oliphant a sexist:

    You can make a very good case that Barack Obama was the right person for the Democrats to nominate, and Hillary Clinton the wrong choice. But the way we got there was terrible. The raw sexism, in all too many cases coming from alleged progressives — see above —(referencing the PMS cartoon) was part of it.

    but anti-Semitic Noooooo…you people just use that to excuse Israel’s “apartheid”…give me a break.

  16. garychapelhill

    oops! forgot the link to the Krugman piece:

    http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/13/sexism-who-us/

  17. I have chosen to retire (perhaps permanently) from commenting because of people on the left espousing views such as this cartoon being another political view. Not all political views are viable, nor should they be tolerated in any forum. Anti-Semiticism is not acceptable period. This cartoon is anti-semitic. It is very sad to see the left blogosphere embrace sexism, homophobia and anti-semiticism.

  18. I agree, FLVoter. It is incredibly depressing and disheartening.

    However, there are still a few of us on the left who reject bigotry in any form.

    Your comments and thoughts are always welcome here.

  19. It’s depressing when you think about all the hard truths we learned over the past year and a half. The left and liberals have turned out to be not what we always thought they were.

  20. Yes, we thought they were on the side of “the little guy,” which includes all disenfranchised and mistreated members of society. We thought they represented truth, justice and the American way.

    Now it turns out no one does!

    If we want real change, we have to do it ourselves, I think. Political parties are meaningless now – they have merged into one corporate UniParty representing the banks and the multinational corporations.

    I am putting my hope in women, going forward – and in the American people. We will rise and bring this nation into a more enlightened state. I am absolutely sure of that.

    When that will happen, wellllll….

  21. Here is a great video. Hillary and Kay Baily Hutchinson on stage together.

    Hillary Rodham Clinton and Kay Bailey Hutchison speak at The Women’s Museum

    Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton and U.S. Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison spoke at The Women’s Museum in Fair Park to a crowd of 400 at a program entitled “Stories From the Top: Their Odyssey.” The event celebrated Women’s History Month.

    http://www.dallasnews.com/video/dallasnews/hp/index.html?nvid=346489&shu=1

  22. Back Bay Style

    MadamaB I was appalled by the cartoon. And I don’t know how anyone could defend under the guise of ‘political commentary”. Hate speech, hate cartoon speech, all the same.

  23. So I would agree with Shtuey’s position that this cartoon is a good thing in that it reveals a lot of ugly truths, mainly what people’s real positions and beliefs are.

    One of the things that makes anti-Semitism so pernicious and dangerous it the fact that it is hidden and disguised. No one would come out and say or write something like “all Jews are cheap, cheaters, dishonest, etc.” At least not publicly. (Though I have heard the term “Jewing me down” used a lot, very acceptable, I guess like “that’s so gay”.)

    But what this whole painful experience has accomplished is to wake me up to some harsh, unpleasant realities. And waking up is always a good thing,
    good thing, both spiritually and practically.

    It was sad to see those formerly considered compatriots turn out to be sexist, homophobic. But then there seemed to be an enlightenedd place to be, called Puma. So it was even sadder to be disillusioned again, this time by Pumas.

    This morning my comments and those of Three Wickets were removed from that other site. One of the things I remarked on is how they seem to be turning into the site they left. Also, very disturbing was seeing them say that someone who disagreed with them was called “decompensating”, a psych term for devolving into irrationality and psychosis.He wasn’t, just sometimes is abstract and metamorphical. I read his statement
    and it was referencing the statement on the previous blog (the one banning mention of the Holocaust as “get out of free card”), which then shut down all comments. His references were unclear, but he was attacked because of his position. At this point he and I, maybe one or two other people are either brave or stupid enough to continue confronting them. But the picture is clearer now, so I see the futility and am ready to stop.

    My comment where I objected was later removed, so they’ve probably banned me. (Shades of kos?)

  24. The cartoon is vile and offensive, and without words says exactly what many on the left are trying to sell as the truth.

    Hard to believe anyone could see it any other way.

  25. Regarding the Oliphant cartoon:

    The Star of David is a holy symbol and whether or not it’s on the Israeli flag doesn’t make it less important in terms of religious and cultural symbolism.

    Oliphant knew what he was doing. He could have critiqued the actions of the Israeli army regarding civilians in a much different way. Using the Star of David in the way Oliphant did was truly offensive.

    If anyone had used the crescent and star in that fashion, or any important religious/cultural symbol in that fashion – it’d be just as inflammatory and wrong.

  26. Oops I’m moderated – Spammy follows me everywhere!

  27. SM77 – Everyone is moderated here darling! Please do not take it personally. I could not love you any more!

    Are people getting the picture as to why I left that other site?

  28. Bella Napoli

    I am afraid some on the left see support for Israel as a conservative or republican issue, that’s why they are turning pro-palestinians on us. I am not Jewish or republican, but I stand with Israel and that cartoon is offensive.Period.

  29. SM — what offended me about the Oliphant cartoon was his use of the obvious, undeniable image of the goose-stepping Nazi — not his use of the Star of David. Equating Jewish people with Nazis is unforgivable. Heck, equating anyone with Nazis is unforgivable — unless, of course they are, in fact, Nazis and/or seek to kill all the Jews. Although some people don’t seem to like to admit it, that is what the Nazis did — kill Jews — and they were pretty effective at it. But then again, these are the same who deny that the aftermath of WW2 directly lead to the formation of the State of Israel. Sure, they protest loudly that they are “friends” of the Jewish people and that they “understand the Holocaust.” All I can say to them is: only the hit dog howls.
    To paraphrase Bella Napoli — I’m not Jewish, and I’m not a Republican. But I stand with Israel. There is no legitimate legal, moral or historical reason for me to do otherwise. That cartoon is not a “legitimate political statement.” It’s only purpose is to inflame & further anti-Jewish sentiment. That cartoon is offensive. Period.

  30. Bella Napoli> I actually don’t think of it as a “pro-Palestinian” or “pro-Israeli” thing. These two things don’t have to be mutually exclusive. One can support and sympathize with the Palestinian people and not detest the State of Israel. I don’t think the issue is that black-and-white, but so many are trying to drain all shades of gray out.

    As far as that other site goes, I personally left not because of the opinions some people hold in regards to the State of Israel – I believe that I’m right and can argue my case. I left because of 3 moderators who, with the blessing of the site’s owner, have turned the site into their own personal soap-box and have chosen to shut down debate on the issue. This is what happened in the Cannon Fodder thread (which was my last straw), and it seems to be happening now again, as speaktruth points out. In fact, my first run-in with one of the moderators was on the same issue several months earlier when he deleted my comments. I remember I wrote to madamab asking her to take my complaint to the site’s owner, but madamab talked me off the ledge at time. This has become an on-going thing there. It is a shame.

  31. I agree that you can be supportive of both the Palestinians and the Israelis. It seems pretty obvious, but the meme now seems to be that you have to demonize the Israelis/Jews in order to prove you don’t hate Muslims. It’s very reminiscent of the Iraq propaganda to me, when if you criticized the invasion or Bush, you were suddenly a traitor to your country.

    And DYB, you’d be surprised at how often I had to do what I did for you. I should have climbed up on that ledge and jumped off with you!

    By the way Angie, that other site is now admitting that the Holocaust led to the formation of Israel.

    Musta used “the Google”.

  32. P.S. Thanks to all of you for your support. I wish I could reply to all of your comments individually.

    I will say that speaktruth, I am very VERY sorry for what you and 3W went through over there. You tried to make a dent in the titanium wall and were treated like dirt and falsely accused.

    I know exactly how that feels, believe me.

  33. I really appreciate reading all of the comments here and the thoughtful discussion of both sides of the issue.

    I just wanted to weigh in and say that I’m not Jewish, and I found the cartoon disturbing. Chilling, actually. Stuff like this scares the crap out of me. History is our reference point, and history tells us that, this is how it starts. As speaktruth said so brilliantly above, this type of propaganda is subtle. If it was obvious, people would recoil from it, but the fact that many people don’t see it for what it is, proves how effective this type of stuff is.

    When I saw the cartoon, I remembered that I grew up thinking that this type of thing could never happen in my lifetime, but here it is, and some people are tolerant of it. Then again, I grew up thinking that our economy could never again collapse like it did in the Great Depresion, but here we are.

  34. Amen Bella & AngieNC, I’m not Jewish or Republican either, and I totally and unabashedly support Israel and it’s right to exist and prosper.

    I do believe that Palestinians should also be able to live and prosper as well, but the problem is that hardliners on both sides are driving the conflict. I’m also of the theory that the majority of Israelis and Palestinians want peace with the other.

    And you’re right, Bella, to support Israel is suddenly a Republican thing? Just because I support Israel doesn’t implicate that I agree with everything they do. Of course not. But there’s a way to do that without the hate.

    Call me a dumb idealistic liberal, but Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. criticized the actions of US government without fomenting hate. And we should be able to follow that example.

  35. madamab: I think I’ve got the picture. speaktruth mentioned how some comments elsewhere disappeared yesterday. Once I backtracked and figured out what happened, I was very disappointed.

    When I saw that cartoon, I (who am not Jewish) instantly found it offensive and disturbing. I think Gary makes excellent points regarding the cartoonist’s history. This recent example clearly fits into the pattern of creations by a disturbed mind.

  36. SM — I agree wholeheartedly with you — I’m not anti-Palestine by any means, but what I see happening now is an obvious movement towards anti-Israel in the guise of being pro-Palestine & I find that very disturbing as janicen pointed out above. People are acting like it is only Israel that is at fault to the point that they are defending people who actually write that “Israel has no right to exist” as if that is legitimate political discourse! That is not only appalling; it is not only the furthest thing from the truth; but it is exactly how thing started in Germany in the 20s. Right now on many European news websites there are a lot of posters making comments blaming Jewish people for the failing economy– that sounds familiar to me too & we have to watch out for it as well.

    MB — oh, so they used google hmmm & discovered I was right when I posted that the aftermath of the Holocaust/WW2 led directly to the creation of the state of Israel? Well good for them. But they really should have just listened to me in the first place. We could have saved a lot of time.

  37. Angie and all – The level of denial as to what the rise of European anti-Semitism means is terrifying.

    This site has some Nazi cartoons. As you can see, when the cartoonists portray Jews, the underlying narrative is that we run the world and that everyone who opposes the Nazi regime is our puppet or dupe.

    Jesse Jackson essentially said the same exact thing prior to Obama’s election.

    In temple a few weeks ago, the rabbi warned us that the conviction of Bernie Madoff would fuel the fire of anti-Semitism. Silly me, I didn’t think about that at all – I just thought of him as another corrupt corporate schmuck.

    Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. Those on the “left” who defend this type of propaganda have learned nothing.

  38. First, I want to apologize for the typos, spelling errors, on my above post. Something about my server made it impossible to see half of what I wrote so I gave up even trying to proofread. Too weird. So it’s metaphorical, not metamorphical. Gawd. This new box is so better, madamab. I can actually read what I wrote.

    I really appreciate the supportive comments here, especially after the insults, from one writer in particular, on the other site. When I began answering some of the comments I was trying to clear up common misconceptions. Though I am Jewish, I know far too little about the reality of what is going on in Israel. I do know there’s a large diversity of opinions there on what is true, and what should be done about it. So I had spent a few hours obsessively googling, and got some info I thought would be useful to share. And to refute the false or arguable info that was being dessimated. But I was answered with the same single point (we should be able to criticise Israel, which I never denied), or worse, with insults that progressively got uglier. This person took umbrage at my statement that they might not know everything about I/P. lol. I guess he thinks he does know “everything.”

    The truth is that when I started commenting I was open about the whole thing, certainly didn’t think anyone there was anti-Semitic, which was why I bothered. I would never go on a real anti-Semitic site and present my case to the idiots there. Why bother.

    However, as their comments came on, I began to revise my opinions about some of the real positions. And again, it’s not the majority of the people at all, just a small number. And the thing that makes it more painful is that this was my favorite site. Their posts on every other topic are brilliant, and express my opinions perfectly, better than I can. I’ve learned a lot there, too, laugh a lot, go there for stress relief during a hard day.

    Madamab, I notice that you don’t name names or discuss that site much. I’ve been trying to take my cue from you, to respect your site. I wonder if you could say more about your position on this, and why you don’t write about what happened. Or even better, I would love to hear more about what did happen.

    I also appreciate the support from non-Jewish people here. It reminds me of all the people who helped Jews during the Holocaust, including some of my relatives, who survived because of them. I know this is a stretch (better be) but I think that possiblity is in our DNA, which is why so many are vigilant for any sign – to stop it then. It’s important. The bottom line is if we say we’re offended and it’s not okay, it should be respected, the cartoon should be withdrawn (as Wiesenthal Center demanded), and an apology should be made for insensitivity.
    Especially by a liberal site!
    Then have an open RESPECTFUL discussion about the topic, if you want.

  39. Speaktruth – I felt that what happened was a private matter between the contributors, and I did not feel comfortable airing dirty laundry in public.

    As this matter has progressed, I think that, wittingly or unwittingly, more of the truth is being revealed by that other site’s constant attempts at punishing and provoking the leavers, and at justifying their ideas about what is and isn’t anti-Semitic. I also think their disrespectful treatment of their own posters has shown a great deal more than they meant to show, as well.

    I am not interested in blog wars. No one wins them, and ultimately, they degenerate into he said, she said. Therefore, I am presenting my opinions and thoughts without attacks or name-calling. I prefer to trust that people can make up their own minds, and not judge them for doing so.

  40. Should be disseminated above.

    Madamab – re other site’s attempts at punishing and provoking their leavers: that’s exactly what I was picking up. Many of the comments directed at me had nothing to do with what I said, but were really about what someone else had said.

  41. To start, I am not Jewish, but I seem to take a harder line on this issue than many Jewish People. While I detest war, I find that I have little sympathy for Hamas and the people that elected Hamas to represent them, since one of Hamas’ main tenets is the complete annihilation of Isreal and the Jewish People. I just cannot understand how anyone can ignore this when discussing I/P issues. To me it trumps everything. Once Hamas recognizes Isreal’s and the Jewish People’s right to exist, acknowledges the Holocaust, and removes all traces of anti-semitism from its tenets, then a dialogue can be opened. I know many do not agree with me, but I cannot condone a terrorist organization, which Hamas continues to be.

  42. It was very interesting at how the other site treated regular posters when the I/P issue came up. I, among other regular posters, were told by several moderators to take our pro-Israel arguments elsewhere. Posters who were bashing Israel, most of whom I did not recognize as posters at all, were allowed to continue. And when I complained I was told by a moderator that my arguments were boring and that she was trying hard not to roll her eyes. I mean, WTF?! In the long run it makes no difference what these moderators think and say. But it revealed volumes about them and the site that gives them a voice. I won’t call them anti-Semitic; I do think they are ignorant.

  43. There is a way to have discussion regarding I/P which allows for people to agree to disagree.

    When graphics like the oliphant cartoon depict nazism (jack boot & goose stepping) and the Star of David, it should be obvious the cartoon is not meant to further discussion but to insult and offend and blame one side.

  44. FLVoter – I think the line I draw, as a Jewish person, is to distinguish between the Palestinians as a people, and their “elected” representatives.

    I simply have a hard time believing that Hamas, a terrorist organization as you correctly point out, won in a “free and fair” election. Wouldn’t it be rather simple for terrorists to steal the election, given the chaotic and desperate situation of the Palestinian people? After all, our beloved country has now seen three stolen Presidential elections in the past 12 years – and we’re supposed to be such a great democracy! Did Bush represent the American people? Does Obama? I don’t think so, yet those are our “elected” leaders.

    You are absolutely right that many, MANY people on the left ignore Hamas’ oft-stated position on Israel. As a government, you cannot negotiate with another government which will not budge from its stated position that your country must be wiped from the face of the earth. Without an understanding of Hamas’ actual beliefs (and Fatah’s actual beliefs, which are similar despite the current position of the US that they are more moderate), there can be no true understanding of the I/P conflict and what needs to be done to resolve it.

  45. I have been hovering between shtuey’s site, my home, bitterpoliticz, and a few other choice sites predominately for information, but have not posted at the site that will not be named since the cannon thread. I am half-Jewish/half-German and have a pretty interesting view of these issues from a historical standpoint, but found that evening on the thread to be one of the most unnerving, infuriating, and, moreso, frightening episodes on a blog. My hands were white, my knees were shaking, and I was literally terrified in a deep, pre-mordial way. I guess my DNA was showing. My gut told me to stay away, and it has been difficult, as I loved Dak’s posts and the general tenor of discussion there. It is another eye-opener, as stated above, and realization is always for the best, however painful it may be.

  46. garychapelhill

    I am suprised at the amount of vitriol coming from that site. I agree with MB that discussing what happened isn’t really productive at this point. It suffices to say that the genesis of the conflict arose in a private conversation. Several posters there, including the site owner decided to not honor that confidence and decided to air things publicly in an attempt to claim the moral high ground. In doing so they have presented a picture of what occurred that is neither factual and frankly has little to do with the original discussion. It is sad that they feel the need to do what they are doing, but their accusations are not even worthy of response. But that’s what they want, and that’s why they keep bringing it up. My only conclusion, as MB said, is that they want to engage us in a “blog war”. Not going to happen. What happened was a private matter, and if they want to be petty and childish in an attempt to provoke us, they are wasting their time.

  47. It is good to be here reading these posts – I’m not Jewish but I recognize and abhor anti-semitism. It is good to see some of my very favorite posters here displaying what made them my favorites – balance. Cannongate was an eye opener for me – not a subject to be sweept under the rug. I don’t appreciate sane comments being deleted and the posters being labeled unbalanced and denigrated. So many of the great FP’s and commentators have left. Sad they do not recognize the irony of their position or how small and mean they seem to me now. For once I got to read the comments they were so upset with before they were deleted.

  48. I’m thinking that site has DailyKos in its DNA.

    dakinikat has her own blog and one can read her posts and comment there, which I intend to do.

  49. Good point, DYB, I have gone to Dak’s site before and likely will again. I guess it is good to get things straight from the source at times.

  50. Ok, one minor point:
    Dakinikat saw the cartoon and associated it with @militaristic @ regimes like the Soviet Union or North Korea.
    That ONLY shows that Dakini’s education is lacking: the Soviet Union was not a militaristic dictatorship.

  51. Soopermouse – I have a lot of respect for Dakinikat, especially on financial matters; but as I told her, I found her comments on this subject off-base. I do not know how you associate goose-stepping and a Star of David together in one image, with anything but the Holocaust. It’s kind of mind-blowing to me that anyone would think of Stalin or Kim Jong Il instead of Hitler when they see those two things together.

    Moreover, that cartoonist is not the only one to make that comparison of Jews to Nazis. I’ve heard it from various different sources in the past year or so, sources which really shocked me.

    Something very scary is going on, as lililam and many others have remarked.

  52. Three Wickets

    Hi MB. Hope you’re well.

    There’s nothing wrong with a blog discussion on I/P, as long as some daunting conditions can be met. One, a willingness for everyone including mods to accept that they come to the topic with biases based on their own life experiences. Two, the issues are extremely polarizing, so those facilitating ought to be sensitive, not defensive, about the visceral nature of the debate; calming, neutral, even-handed; not belligerent, directing, or heavy-handed. Three, if the intent is to allow for a good faith debate and not to validate a particular point of view, there should not be any censorship, except at the very outer edges. Facilitators ought to approach with humility and deference to their own limitations on knowledge and personal experience, not with aggression, provocative herrings, selective censorship, or personal views. If the blog wants to put forth its own point of view, then it should do so, out in the light with research and due diligence. Anything less comes across as biased mods advancing their gut opinions on the matter using Joseph Cannon as a megaphone. Regardless of original intent, that becomes the reality.

    Will miss some of the folks at that site, but oh well. More clients seem to be emerging from their bunkers, so I’ll be living on planes again. But will be sure to stay in touch MB. Big hug.

  53. Soopermouse – I’m sorry, but I had to delete your comment. Although I agree with its substance, this is my site and I don’t want to participate in a blog war over here.

    That is not the same as hiding.

    That other site is not the only site that promotes this point of view. In fact, there are quite a few on the left that think this cartoon is just fine and dandy, or at least, represents “legitimate criticism.” That is why my article was more general in its intention, referring to “the left.” As I said earlier, I’ve seen it happening for over a year now.

    Please respect my views on this subject. Thank you.

    Three Wickets – I heard what happened at the other site. I am so sorry you were treated so poorly. You always have my full support.

  54. Madamab, the fact that someone can we versed in one subject does not make them versed in all. I’ma history buff with an elephant memory, plus I atually was born and lived under communism.

    Ontopic: what is going on is that soem people have become @liberals@ out of folowing a fad, not due to some innate understanding of social mechanics or yearning for social justice.

  55. Once again, soopermouse, I agree with you. I did not know you grew up under Communism. You must have a lot to say about totalitarian regimes. Do you think Bush, and now Obama, is pushing the US down that road? I must say that is one of my biggest fears.

    I do think that the Obot types are only “liberals” because they think it’s kewl. But those who never liked Obama, and who are still promoting views like these, are truly beyond my comprehension.

  56. gary, liliam, FLVoter, SM, 3 Wickets, DYB, jules, janicen, soopermouse, Boo Radly, catarina, Bella (not to mention MB & shtuey) — seems to me we got the cream of the crop over here! 🙂

  57. eek — forgot taggles!

  58. I agree, Angie – and speaktruth as well!

    If we forgot anyone, please don’t hate us – we love you all!

  59. “I do think that the Obot types are only “liberals” because they think it’s kewl. But those who never liked Obama, and who are still promoting views like these, are truly beyond my comprehension”

    I think that’s an interesting statement. Obama, however, goes back and forth between claiming to be a liberal (as he did during the primaries) and saying he wants to be a New Democrat. (Democrats, of course, are not necessarily liberal, but that’s how many people view D.) Many of us would argue Obama is not a liberal. And many of his followers are just following Obama. I don’t think they have an kind of political ideology they really believe in. (Just like the media!) They’re just following Obama. Whichever way he blows, they’ll bend. In fact, considering that over 70% of blacks in CA who voted for Obama also voted for Proposition 8 – a great number of Obama supporters are not and have no intention of being “liberal.”

    Oh, and “Don’t ask, don’t tell” stays, Gates says. Is the gay community at large mad yet? I haven’t heard a peep.

  60. angie> I’m right there with you. I’m a lot of things, and a glutton for punishment ain’t one of them!

  61. DYB – Obama himself stated quite clearly that he was not a liberal during the primaries. At no time in my recollection did he ever label himself such. In fact, I don’t remember him ever labeling himself a Democrat. He was part of the Obama for America Party. He was “post-partisan.”

    However, quite a few of those who supported Obama did call themselves “liberals.” You saw it in the exit polling after the election. Self-described “liberal” Democrats voted overwhelmingly for the O.

    That is what I was referring to.

  62. garychapelhill

    and obama is a homophobe. i’ve been saying that DADT wasn’t going anywhere for a while now. How gays are still in his corner after he has spit in our faces time and time again is beyond me.

  63. Hate speech is hate speech. Trying to cloud it by relabeling it as a “political view” does not change its nature. That cartoon is inflamatory and specifically designed to bring up anti-semitic sentiments. It is hate speech. I am so tired of the left trying to justify all sorts of evils such as sexism, misogyny, homophobia and anti-semitism. Are they trying to be like Obama (all things to all people) because they sure have adopted his habit of relabeling. There are alot of legitimate grey areas in this world that we must struggle with on a daily basis. However, this cartoon is not one of them. If you cannot see that, then you need to do some soul searching. If the left was not prepared to call out sexism, misogyny, and homophobia, why would they even try with anti-semitism. What a sad reflection episodes like these are on western civilization. This is that “Change” we heard about for over a year.

  64. Bella Napoli

    In Europe, the right has, traditionally, been pro-Israel and the left not only pro-palestinians but anti-Israel, so it was only a matter of time until the US followed suit. I am with FLVoter, in that the Palestinians have refused every opening Israel has ever extended to them, the ultimate slap in the face was to elect Hamas who will accept nothing short of the dismantling of the State of Israel. Sure, the Palestinians now complain that Hamas forces them to store arms and ammunitions in their living rooms and give cover to their militants, but they have only themselves to blame for that.What did they think it would happen when they elected what most of the western world sees as a terrorist organization to lead them? Did you know that an Italian journalist,known pro-palestinians, sneaked into Gaza during the latest conflict with Israel and reported that the number of civilian casualties had been greatly inflated by Hamas and that the UN took the numbers given by Hamas and made them official without independent investigation? He also said Palestinians are fed up with Hamas and their tactics, but are too afraid to speak up. I would give you a link, but I don’t have it anymore, I deleted it and,besides, it was in Italian anyway. There is no easy answer to the conflict, but depicting Israel, like that cartoon does, as the new Nazis makes my blood boil.And, as I said, I am not even Jewish…

  65. I think the majority of the left went for Obama over Hillary. Usually I have ideas and theories to explain something like that. But with this I continue to be mystified by the surreality of it. Just as I’m mystified every time I hear him referred to with respect and deference by some commentator (just happened listening to NPR). Lots of smart people I know, too. I don’t remember this ever happening before. It really is as if they’ve been Stepfordized or lobotomized.

    Thank you, madamab, for remembering me. I was feeling very left out there. And angie, if I’ve offended you somewhere, I’m perfectly fine with talking about it, hopefully working it out. It wasn’t intentional. I have an idea of part of the connection, but don’t know the specifics. But I had an idea that you were angry at me, or that you just don’t like my comments. I have an idea it’s not cool to take up blog time with this. Maybe e-mail. Or I’m okay with letting it go, too. My style is to bring things out in the open, because otherwise they can fester. But on blogs it’s so complicated and tricky.

    I too am very happy to see everyone here, and to talk about what happened. My guess is that everyone, like me, was feeling very alone in our reactions, so it’s comforting to hear from everyone else. I remember during cannongate (great name), being surprised and grateful as people I didn’t know well, spoke up for “my side”. (pumping air each time).
    Yeah, go team. (No blog war, I hear ya, madamab. But it could be soooo much fuunnn.)

  66. speaktruth — I deeply apologize — I kept scrolling up & down to make sure I didn’t forget anyone & I really thought I had written you down too!!!

  67. speaktruth — I just read your comment @ 6:31 (which I read after I posted mine @ 6:48 wherein I explained that my leaving your name out was unintentional — I thought I had written your name down). But now that I read your comment @ 6:31 I really feel bad — I in no way, no how have anything against you or your comments or anything. If I have made you feel that I didn’t like you or your comments it was unintentional — that is the problem with writing — sometimes you put something a certain way that is taken a way you didn’t intend plus you don’t even realize that someone took it that way. Really, truly there is no “there” there. 🙂

  68. Ohhh. (Sigh of relief). Good. Thanks for replying. Because I noticed your standing up for us (that’s how I think of it, I guess), and it made me respect you more. In addition to the compassion I saw when you wrote that bankruptcy post. Because I would think most lawyers wouldn’t really care, so I thought that if I were going through that (and I have a real estate business, so….) I’d feel better if you were standing next to me.

  69. Three Wickets

    Not connected to my previous comment, but I was reminded last night of a verrry looong film I saw back around my college days. For some things, I had more patience when I was younger. When I heard the film might be rescreened, I began remembering some of the words.

    whisper, weak, pseudo, intellectual, stereotype, rhetoric, mass, denial, silent, passive, complicit, consent, entitlement, blame, race, trample, collaborate, dispose, rationalize, forgive, forget, appease, economy, pressure, reprise, whisper, weak…

  70. silverlakemom

    Delurking:
    I couldn’t agree more with what all of the commenters ;menches(sp?) everyone of you.Thank-you MB for providing this safe haven,I’m a great(silent) fan of your posts and plays.

  71. Stateofdisbelief

    I’m wondering if anyone has come up with a copy of this alleged letter written by Sarah Palin’s new Attorney General which the left blogasphere is touting as proof that Sarah is anti-gay.

    All of the google hits link back to two sources, an article from the Anchorage Daily news and a blog site called PamsBlend. Neither have a copy of the letter and the blurb they are citing is from an article about the AG and does not say he CALLED gays anything, just that he used certain words. Can we verify the accuracy? The blurb from the Anchorage News states:

    “During a fight several years ago over gay rights, [Allison] Mendel helped organize Anchorage lawyers in support of an anti-discrimination ordinance. Ross wrote a nasty letter to the Bar Association newsletter, using words like “immoral”, “perversion” and “degenerates.” The language went way beyond reasonable disagreement, Mendel and others said.”
    – from Wayne Anthony Ross never a quiet force, Anchorage Daily News

    Notice it just said he used words…it doesn’t say how. Is there a way we can verify if this is accurate or if it is more obot disinformation?

  72. Stateofdisbelief

    Stateofdisbelief, on April 1st, 2009 at 6:11 am Said: Edit Comment
    Mark your calendar for the next episode of “The View From Under the Bus”

    Wednesday, April 8th at 8:00pm EST

    Who’s Under the Bus This Week?
    Who are we inducting into the Hall of Shame?
    Who are we nailing to the Wall of Shame?
    Whose HERstory are we sharing?
    Who has been the biggest Wanker this week?

    You’ll only find out if you tune in!

    For show information go to: http://www.theviewfromunderthebus.wordpress.com

  73. Bella Napoli

    Good morning, everyone. I have to vent and it is OT to this thread: I just heard CNN go over the top wild with the assertion that Carla Bruni Sarkozy is a no show at the G20 because she was afraid of unfavorable comparisons to…Michelle Obama! They said she was afraid of the beauty and style of the First Lady…I think I am going to lose my breakfast. We are talking about one of the most beautiful European women, ex-top model being afraid of …Michelle! Kill me now or kill me later…
    Sorry for the OT but I thought I share…lol
    Thanks Madamab for this site. I understand you are an opera singer? Opera is my passion and opera singers are tops in my book! And you are a great playwright too…

  74. That’s okay Bella – I think people are ready to move on. I’ve just put up an open thread for G20 and other discussions, so you are quite timely! And really, that’s just a disgusting thing for CNN to say. Sexist as well as totally and completely inaccurate.

    Thanks for the props! My voice is suited to Italian opera (the lighter stuff like bel canto and some Verdi and Puccini), Mozart and some French rep. I love singing opera but right now am doing more choral singing. Such are the vagaries of the business. 🙂

  75. SoD> What would a letter by the AG have to do with the Governor? Does the Governor proof-read letters normally? Did Palin proof-read that letter and approve of it? Was the letter written on her behalf? These are all questions we’d need answered. All I know right now is that in Alaska partners of gay employees have health insurance because of Palin’s actions.

    MB> Funny how people call bel canto the “lighter stuff.” A lot of light-weights have fallen flat on their faces doing it! LOL. So if you can sing it – you’re not singing the light stuff! My understanding is that the new revival of “Elisir d’Amore” at the Met is a fiasco, which doesn’t surprise me when I see who the two leads are!

  76. Stateofdisbelief

    DYB — IF AND ONLY IF IT IS TRUE it would reflect upon her judgment in selecting him since it would indicate an inappropriately bigotted view. Her record to date makes me question the veracity of the allegation however.